[BARACK OBAMA, APRIL 6, 2011] If we don't have clean coal technologies to catch the particles that are sent up in the air, it causes serious pollution that increases the rates of asthma and is contributing to weather patterns' changing. So we should work on technologies to make coal cleaner.

[ASSURAS] That was President Obama back in April talking about coal. As we said earlier, the U.S. gets nearly half its electricity from coal, but environmental groups like the Sierra Club are working to get the country off its coal dependency. And that's what's behind the Sierra Club's "Beyond Coal" campaign. The goal is to shut down 1/3 of U.S. coal-fired power plants before the decade is out and cut electricity production from coal by 30%. The campaign recently got a big boost from billionaire New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg. His personal charity, Bloomberg Philanthropies, has committed $50 million over four years to support Beyond Coal. Now, with the money, Sierra Club says it will widen its fight against coal plants to nearly all 50 states.

But coal also has its defenders, who say it's a mainstay of the U.S. economy and getting it out of the ground supports more than half a million jobs nationwide. And pro-coal groups, like the American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity, have a campaign of their own.

[ACCCE AD ANNOUNCER] In America, there's an energy you can feel. Energy created by American workers and American jobs. Jobs powered by affordable energy, generated by our most abundant domestically produced fuel -- coal, the source of nearly half our electricity. It is America's power.

[TEXT ON SCREEN] CLEAN COAL. AMERICASPOWER.ORG.

[ASSURAS] In this week's MIX, we've brought both sides of the coal debate together. Here in the studio, Bruce Nilles is the National Coal Campaign director for the Sierra Club. And Evan Tracey is a senior vice-president at the American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity. It's great to have both of you. Thank you for joining us.

Bruce, I'd like to start with you. And the question of half a million jobs, according to industry estimates, being at risk because of your campaign. What are you going to replace those jobs with? What is the energy source that is going to replace those jobs and fill the gap?

[NILLES] What's really exciting is that wind and solar today are already employing more people than work in coal mining and coal-fired power plants. So today, as we're moving away from coal -- and there are plans to retire as much as 10% of the coal fleet already -- we're seeing record job growth in both the wind and solar sectors, so, at the end of the day, we're actually creating more jobs. And the other important piece is, it's healthier.

[ASSURAS] But let me ask you this. The gap is, we're talking about 30%, the reduction that you want. That is a huge gap, and renewables -- solar and wind and geothermal -- only make up 4% of the pie, so how are you going to, really, realistically fill that gap?

[NILLES] If we look across the country, there are states who have been quietly doing this already. The state of Iowa today gets 20% of its power from wind. If we simply did that across the United States and every state got as much power from clean energy, like wind, as does Iowa, we could retire half the coal fleet.

[ASSURAS] It makes sense, right?

[TRACEY] Well, it maybe makes sense to Bruce, but the fact of the matter is that there are half of the power right now that we use in this country is generated by coal. Baseload electricity from coal is essential to our nation's economic security. We are finding that it's harder to open coal-fired power plants but simply because of the legal burdens that groups like the Sierra Club, quite frankly, are putting on. So, in other words, instead of moving forward with things like carbon capture and storage, that you talked about in your earlier pieces, it's harder because these utilities are being forced through this longer process of decisions.

[ASSURAS] I have to interrupt you there because you're saying it's essentially their fault, but when it comes to carbon capture and storage, the Department of Energy has seven projects that it's trying to get off the ground to prove that the technology can work. There are 600 coal plants in this country, so is it realistic that this is going to happen?

[TRACEY] Look, there's carbon capture and storage projects going on. The fact of the matter, though, is that, because there isn't a cap-and-trade bill, for instance, there's no incentive, on the company's standpoint, to just go ahead and do this. Companies that have done it, who've taken the lead on this, are finding that they're very frustrated in Washington, and I think if you look at our current budget debate, you'll get everything going on in Washington. The one thing that our political leaders actually agree on is clean coal technology.

[ASSURAS] I have to back up, because you're essentially calling for climate legislation. American Electric Power, one of the biggest coal power companies in the country, just pulled out of that, saying, "We need climate legislation." Is that what you're suggesting?

[TRACEY] Our organization has never opposed climate organization or reasonable carbon capture and storage standards from the government. I think that's one of the mis--

[ASSURAS] You heard it here.

[TRACEY] -- misconceptions out there in the industry, that we actually support reasonable cap-and-trade. Now, I'm sure Bruce and I would never be able to come to agreement on what that number means or what "reasonable" means to his constituency, what "reasonable" means to my constituency. But the fact of the matter is, we've never fought that.

[ASSURAS] So, Bruce, is there a compromise, and if carbon capture is attached, would you be okay with coal power?

[NILLES] Carbon capture and storage is a pipe dream. As you just said, American Electric Power pulled out, and they pulled out because it was too expensive. We can't afford it. As the previous piece said, it would double electricity prices. So my question for Evan is, is he proposing that we double electricity prices so we can continue our reliance on coal, when, today, there's cheaper alternatives like wind, which are cheaper than new coal plants already? So, if we're going to protect public health and our rate payers, we cannot afford continuing to invest in coal.

[TRACEY] Well, look, you talk about investment -- most of the investment right now is coming from the government in the form of subsidies to wind and solar. They're trying to invent things, okay? The fact of the matter is, clean coal technology exists.

[ASSURAS] Not quite --

[NILLES] There's not a single home in America powered by a coal plant that captures carbon. Tell me that home.

[TRACEY] Nobody is right now requiring that anybody do it, either. So the fact of the matter is, AEP has an example that works. You saw a number of examples in the setup piece that you see that it's possible as opposed to, we don't have to develop it. We have two centuries of coal reserves.

[ASSURAS] What's the time frame? How realistic?

[TRACEY] The clock doesn't start until the government decides to act, okay? Until Congress says, "Here's where the goalposts are going to be," there's no incentive for our industry to go out there and put this in place. Right now what they find is when they negotiate for carbon capture and storage or cap-and-trade legislation, is that the goalposts move. So it's very hard to do long-term planning -- number one, if you're a utility; number two, if you're in the business of coal mining; and number three, if you're trying to run a business. In other words, you need some certainty.

[NILLES] It's why we're moving this debate outside of Washington -- we're getting nothing done here. Community after community -- whether in Colorado or Texas or Washington State -- they're saying, "It's time to move beyond coal. We can't afford it, it's too expensive, and it's hurting our kids."

[TEXT ON SCREEN] Watch our guests square off in the Green Room at energyNOW.com.

[ASSURAS] On that note, I want to thank both of you gentlemen for joining us here today. Several challenges ahead for coal and for the energy picture in this country.

[NILLES] Thank you.

[TRACEY] Thank you.