Thalia Assuras:Can the U.S. lead the global clean energy economy? President Obama says we can with good old American ingenuity. On Wednesday, the president returned to the Gamesa, a company that makes wind turbines outside Philadelphia. He visited as a candidate in 2008 and having declared his 2012 reelection bid earlier in the week, now he’s a candidate again.

Barrack Obama:When it comes to high-end, high-skilled jobs, those are the kind of manufacturing jobs we have to go after, and that’s where research, innovation is so important. That’s where on something like clean energy, making sure that there’s a market for that clean energy is so important. That’s what’s going to produce manufacturing jobs.

Thalia Assuras:But where are these jobs? Who’s hiring the workers? And haven’t we heard this before? After all, the president was talking about creating millions of clean energy jobs before he was even elected president. Joining us now for this week’s mix from Berkley, California, former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, she’s now a Senior Advisor with Policy Research Group Pew Charitable Trusts and she’s about to embark on a clean energy tour across America.

And in the studio, former Maryland Governor Bob Ehrlich, now a Senior Counsel to international law firm King & Spalding and thanks to both of you for joining us. I’m going to start with Governor Granholm.

So, where are those jobs? Didn’t we hear this before when the president was first running for office?

00:15:01

Jennifer Granholm:Well, I can say in Michigan, we’ve seen a lot of them as a result of the investments that came out of the Recovery Act. In fact, Michigan was able to attract because of policy about 40 -- in just in about two years, maybe a year and a half, 47 companies came to Michigan and they’re slated to create 89,000 jobs. These are clean energy jobs. For example, the electrification of the vehicle, the battery, those people who make the battery are now working inside of Michigan. Just that sector alone is supposed to create 63,000 jobs from 17 battery companies.

So we are seeing in Michigan the effects of the commitment of the United States to that kind of clean energy policy, but we need it to be broader.

Thalia Assuras:Sir, do you agree that we need it to be broader, I mean --

Bob Ehrlich:We don’t disagree.

Thalia Assuras:You don’t disagree?

Bob Ehrlich:In fact, I think the question was, “Have you heard this before?” You’ve heard it with republican and democratic presidents, so it didn’t start with this president. The governor and I agree. Everybody agrees on both sides of the aisle. Are green energy jobs good? Yes. Do they take investment? Yes.

But the bottom line is, at a rhetorical level, it’s very easy to make those statements. Getting from here to there, how do you do it? How do you do it most efficiently and when does the market catch up obviously because American companies, international companies, everybody wants to make a buck.

Thalia Assuras:So what do we do now Governor Granholm? Go ahead.

Jennifer Granholm:Well, the United States used to hold the number one position in private sector clean energy investments. However, Germany and China have leapt over us. Why? Because they have adopted national policy, which makes the commitment to a market.

So those businesses are deciding to locate there instead of the United States because they’re assured of a market. They can go there, they can use the -- they can sell there and they can export to us. We need to do the same thing.

Thalia Assuras:Is that why you said to a reporter that you have been to China recently and what you heard in China set your hair on fire, is that what you mean? What did you mean?

Jennifer Granholm:I meant that there’s clearly there a commitment to creating energy jobs and they have put that commitment into practice. So they have made an environment there that businesses are choosing to locate and it’s not just about wages by the way. They’re choosing to locate in China and in Germany, which obviously has the same wage structure as us because they have made a commitment to clean energy. They’re saying that in our nation, we’re going to commit to purchasing a certain amount of energy from renewable sources and that creates a market for those businesses there.

Thalia Assuras:Is that what’s going to happen here, Governor Ehrlich?

Jennifer Granholm:That’s got to happen here.

Thalia Assuras:Is that what will set your hair on fire, tax incentives and those kinds of things?

Bob Ehrlich:Of course, there’s two ways to do it and the traditional -- we’re not breaking new ground here, there are traditional ways. One is private sector obviously, and when the private sector sees a buck can be made as the governor was talking about, boom, they’ll go.

Thalia Assuras:But she’s also saying they invest in renewable energy -- right.

Bob Ehrlich:And the public sector, invest obviously means taxpayer dollars into certain basic research and basic science.

Thalia Assuras:Republicans aren’t going to do that though. They’re already saying, Paul Ryan of the House Budget Chairman is saying, “Okay, a billion dollars a year maybe.” President Obama says $8 billion a year maybe.

Bob Ehrlich:Well, we’ll see, but this gets into another show.

[Laughter]

Thalia Assuras:Okay.

Jennifer Granholm:What I can say. There is enormous by part as a support for our National Energy Policy. Seventy-five percent of republicans believe that we should have a national policy that commits us to getting a certain percentage of our energy from renewable sources and that encourages energy efficiency, 75% of republicans.

Bob Ehrlich:I think that’s great.

Jennifer Granholm:I’m not talking about a carbon tax. I’m not talking about carbon trade, just the commitment.

Bob Ehrlich:Exactly.

Jennifer Granholm:Just the commitment to energy by Clean Energy Standard.

Thalia Assuras:Governor Ehrlich, how can that happen?

Bob Ehrlich:And you’re right, you’re right and again, at a rhetorical level, everybody supports it, there are green jobs, they are good stuff, what you’re doing is terrific. I think everybody supports right around the country and doing what you’re doing, which I think is a fantastic thing for a governor to do.

But again, this is where the rubber meets the road, how many billions of dollars are you talking about given the trillions of dollars in debt and deficits and all that.

Jennifer Granholm:All I’m talking about right now is a Clean Energy Standard.

Bob Ehrlich:Where should it go Governor Ehrlich, where should it go?

Jennifer Granholm:Clean Energy Standard, right? That doesn’t cost you any money at all and everybody agrees it should happen. That should be number one.

Bob Ehrlich:As I said, there are issues that we can all agree, but then, what is going to be the number in this coming budget. That’s where the rubber meets the road and obviously, that’s for the both sides have to sit down.

Thalia Assuras:But how do we get there?

Bob Ehrlich:How do you get there and how many dollars you spend, and then (00:19:10) budget.

Thalia Assuras:Again, how do you get there and that’s -- well, what would the republicans do for example. What will they do?

Bob Ehrlich:Well, we’re talking about trillions of dollars obviously. So one billion and eight billion is going to be one of the easier decisions they have to make.

Thalia Assuras:Governor Granholm?

Jennifer Granholm:Let me just say just to close this out because I know you’ve got to go. But the bottom line is, the budget is in trouble because we’re not creating jobs, other countries are creating jobs because they’ve got a commitment to this sector. This is the biggest market around. If we miss this boat, everyday these businesses are making decisions and they’re locating somewhere else, this could create millions of jobs in America, which of course could help the budget. The bottom line is we have to send a signal to the market. If we don’t send that signal, the market is going to go elsewhere where the signal has been sent by other (00:19:50).

Bob Ehrlich:It has to be a function of Sound Science, not just government throwing money because it sounds good or it looks real good in a political campaign. I’m not saying that’s happening --

Thalia Assuras:You’re saying the science isn’t there?

00:20:00

Bob Ehrlich:I’ve seen it before. I’ve been in congress, seen that, done that. So it has to be a function of really good science where of course, which will lead to solid job creation.

Thalia Assuras:Well, I have to thank both of you. Well, I think we’re going to have to have both of you join us once again or maybe the two of you can go on a tour together. I’m not (00:20:15) sure. That will be great.

Bob Ehrlich:That will be fun.

Jennifer Granholm:I invite you. Come with me. That’s great.

Bob Ehrlich:Good to see you governor.

Thalia Assuras:Governor Ehrlich, thank you very much.

Jennifer Granholm:All right. Good to see you.

Thalia Assuras:Governor Granholm thanks so much to you as well.

Jennifer Granholm:You bet.